Trade

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Re: Trade

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Based on your empire and your members who are minor races, then all systems have some starting mined materials. Some have duranium, deuterium, crystals, and iridium. At first, you don't require duranium, crystals, or iridium. You could sell these to rapidly construct buildings such that by the time duranium, crystals, and iridium are sold again,they are for high prices.

That is a smart tactic IF you can generate them. It's a financial boost in early turns that can really help you as your cashflow sucks.

The most boneheaded thing you can do is give away deritium as it's PRICELESS! The AI will stupidly give that away, I guess based on availability of mined material when they are hard-pressed to negotiate. Deritium is absolutely required to make vessels. Never give it away.
Minor Race Database http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... r_(Minors)
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Re: Trade

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Confirmed. The refractory period to stimulus to get back to a setpoint gets more and more abbreviated and unless one runs out of mined material, then one can do this indefinitely and generally settle at a progressively higher sales point.

I don't know why the Terrans keep violating nonaggression pacts as I done literally nothing but make cash amd then in turn #186, they started sabotaging. Based on scoring, I'm 4.6 out of 6.0 so technically I would be among the least threatening empires. I have no military just to test both the economics and how unbalanced the AI is plus see what sabotage acts would occur with my neighbor when acting 100% benign.

BotE could be awesome, but this literally broken sabotage system sucks.

The economic system is flawed but makes sense as buildings generally require titanium and my economic tactic to use mining sales largely of titanium at the start, then results in depleting titanium at a voracious rate, thus heating up the economy and the sales price.

It might be better to turn off all goals except research and diplomacy, and I bet you can consistently gain 10 special research projects faster than the AI as all you have to do is put special research to 100% and keep building science buildings.

Maybe then the major races would act normally.

I so love BotE's potential that I hate to criticize it, but sabotage ruins the whole experience. For 90% of new players, I wouldn't play more than one other empire on a huge board. You would have a better time just sandboxing this game and having fun instead of moronic sabotage.

It's so unbalanced that the Terrans destroyed 9 science buildings in a single turn. It's infuriating and makes zero sense.
:evil:

In sandbox mode as any empire, you could play however you wish if you apply these tactics in a measured way, particularly after 200+ turns so you can build a surplus of mined materials. The AI minor races won't invade and you can just explore and build massive fleets to then test using them. It's more satisfying initially, but not ultimately to destroy systems. Instead you gain their trust and act benignly and soon 25% of the galaxy is yours, then 50%.

The game shines in this aspect.

It's unbalanced at sabotage that likely at some point, even the Khaoran (Klingons) would use sabotage and that is just WRONG. The Terrans now are acting like the mirror universe evil twin Terran Empire and attacking innocents. It's ugly and should be ruinous to them as they are violating their core morality, but they are grossly unbalanced and after the minor races get 80% acceptance, they won't leave the "Federation". Yet they actually would as they clearly are not just evil, but malevolent.

The weird thing in the AI world is that on its own, the AI develops bigotry, so rather than offer a benevolent techocratic paradise, it would become Skynet from the Teriminator films.
https://thenextweb.com/artificial-intel ... d-bigotry/

Or this.
https://www.eetasia.com/ai-racist-witho ... r-bigotry/

The AI always embraces evil to win...at any cost. Want a horror show? The Russians, Chinese and the American military want robot submarines armed with ICBMs with nuclear warheads. And many would have MIRV technology (multiple warheads) plus be hypersonic so almost too fast to shoot down with any confidence, and have stealth to get within 15 minutes of each other's cities.

This was obvious way back in 1996 with Civ2 as 99% of human beings are repulsed by nuclear weapons but the AI loves to use them and can't figure out how pointless they are.

WATCH.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ITGIvSIHkXU

An AI has no morality and thus is a classic psychopath.
Minor Race Database http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... r_(Minors)
Minor Race Ships http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... nen_Völker
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Re: Trade

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You can make so much money using my method that your "change" to "upkeep" can be 10:1. Consistently getting it 5:1 is a smart idea regardless. The Rotharians might struggle at first and can only get a 3:1 ratio.
Minor Race Database http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... r_(Minors)
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Re: Trade

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It really makes little sense to offer a trade treaty when you can't deliver to the minor races. Think how irritable you would be if someone promised you an essential natural resource, but you could never take delivery. Try offering a "friendship" treaty which is essentially a non-agression pact between a major race and a minor race. If they start out optimistic, then they probably will accept. Neutral minor races are suspiscious if you can make good on your promises. And you probably can't.

You likely will make colony ships and transports. You colonize where you can and focus on not starving, then getting mining going, then turning that basic mine into a next level up mine. Then it begins producing. You probaby have to start a resource route from your home system to accomplish this unless that system is already rich in ore.

You make transports to stretch your bondaries. Colonies do this especially when making space docks and better versions. Transports are sent to systems with M class planets and once there, you build an outpost. That paves the way for colonization just like the old west and the cavalry was there to protect settlers.

Once you do these things, the yellow boundary is increased and your scouts are trying to avoid conflict, and find good systems for colonization. You focus on surveying everything within the yellow zone.

When colonized and improved with a space dock and a level 1 one mine, then scrap the outpost. A lot of credits are returned and that helps you build better infrastructure with factories being priorities as they accelerate construction.

You goal is to create a many titanum producers to keep your Change to Upkeep ratio greater than 3:1 Now you have excellent cashflow.

Now every time you buy faster construction with credits, this accelerates the value of titanium. It will go from 94 to 200. Then sell it down to 100. Use those credits to accelerate construction. That again increases the value of titanium.

You see how this works? It's logical. Demand is hot and some want trading. Eventually you have a little excess and you start trade treaties with minor races and start trade routes and get a tiny profit. You would be better off doing as above, but you now have a secondary goal of persuading the minor races to like you enough to eventually be members of your empire.

Some have caches of ore and crystals too. You see these just like the above and creating a hot economy where much is being built and rasing the price enough to begin a 100 to 200 swing, then a 200 to 300 swing. Then a 200 to 400 swing. And so on.

Each time you do apply this principle, the refractory period gets shorter and the value rises higher. So more and more credits are being earned and better and better infrastructure is being built to produce more mined materials.

You are trying to accelerate research as well and do every special research project to improve your profitability.

You are trying to mostly colonize but when nothing is available in the yellow range, then terraform your systems slowly or you will induce famines as your propulation growth is screwy in BotE and unnaturally high. So you create farms to compensate. Then move to a new system and terraform there.

And terraform your neighboring minor race friends that you have trade agreements with, especially if you can't fulfill your trade promises...yet. So do a few planets and by then, a new system has been scouted or your range increased from better space docks or upgrades or outpost building.

In my opinion, barracks and space docks generate local income as the soldiers buy locally, most on base, but in town. And docks bring trade. I would mod these to provide revenue streams. It is logical.

Likewise factories are not just for the government, but increase trade at the personal and corporate level, thus they should provide income streams too.

Little changes like these would vastly improve the game; it helps the AI too...always a good thing.

It makes the trade system and the economy far more understandable...to new players.

My hope is while BotE is old on Windows systems, that people realize how terrific it is on the Android and the untapped potential it has to be far more through modding. I think it xould be the best space 4x game but needs minor adjustment.

But for that to happen, the game has to be easier to understand.

Go is a great game but not played in the west because few understand how to play it. Chess is a great game but has complexity to it as players have studied it. The best games can be seldom played as either you have no one to play with, no teacher, no understanding of the basics, etc.

I am a serious science fiction fan of many many decades, and played computer games when they were terribly expensive in the old days when you might pay $3000 for a computer and spend $40 for the game itself. Well that would be $6,000 today and $80.

So I'm qute aware of what is available plus have modded, yet I never heard of BotE until 3 weeks ago. Strange. It's largely unknown in the USA. There are almost no articles on it. Weird.

The smallest positive marketing and documentation and small amountsnof modding would make this game...shine.
Minor Race Database http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... r_(Minors)
Minor Race Ships http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... nen_Völker
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Re: Trade

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So your first priority is to make your domestic economy "hot".

Then trade with minor races.

Then with some of the excess credits, either:
1. Bribe if the minor race is highly corruptible.
2. Offer a gift to the others just to move them from angry to not cooperative.
3. Then do it again to get them to neutral.

The minor races are well aware of a major race growing and especially so with a hot economy. And if fortunate, you gain the trust of a minor race with a standing fleet. Now you have military assets so you are a threat to the minor races. Some will capitulate out of self-preservation. Others are coaxed.

Unless they just hate you, then the relationship can improve, and even hate can turn to mere anger which can be modulated.

Trade opens the door.
Minor Race Database http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... r_(Minors)
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Re: Trade

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It's a mistake to put Birth of the Empires (BotE) in a box solely for military strategists who sneer at cheats and ignore those who are new players as they didn't have anyone teaching them.

Games exist to fit niche audiences and not everyone is hard core and has 3 weeks to learn and study a game.

You have to shorten the gap so strangers understand how great BotE is and how with modding it is a game in progress ie it is evolving.

Otherwise very few players will bother with it and will move on to a easier to understand game.

Mostly BotE is NOT a military strategy game but an economic simulation as combat makes up 5% of the game. Few players are cerebral turtlers wanting to try a program documented in German to play an economic game that seldom allows combat.

BotE has some of the most extraordinary extraterrestrials and a fantastic compelling back story of the minor and major races. Yet the rich tapestry of her mythos is seldom utilized in the game. That is like a beautiful lady wearing a bag on her head and body. No one knows she is beautiful and she rarely speaks English. 1 in a 10,000 might strike up a conversation with her and discover she's beautiful and charming.
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Re: Trade

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Improve the trade and economy and in an arms race,more skirmishes and battles will take place...naturally.

There is a method to the madness.

Most exploration and story telling through events by turn and random events generate excitement. The game becomes compelling, not mechanistic.
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Re: Trade

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The guaranteed simplest way for chess to die... is never teach anyone new how to play chess.

Think about it.
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Re: Trade

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I think it's understood that with one empire playing sandbox, then your empire is the only one demanding titanium, for example, and so the slope of the line that indicates the rate of increase is solely up to your own construction spending as titanium is a major aspect crtical resource of those processes.

So when you have six empires all desiring titanium and selling it, then this can rapidly drive up the price. That is when getting monopolies makes sense...if you can survive sabotage and intrastellar war.

I wish things were either more balanced or more easily modded on the Android tablet version as then playing with 3 or 4 empires would be enjoyable.

As a sandbox game, it's perfectly enjoyable as there is no sabotage and no insanely wild backstabbing with treaties and bizarrely declared wars by major empires (for no discernable reason other than conflict for conflict's sake). And there are battles to take sometimes heavily defended systems.

There is no happy medium.
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Re: Trade

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If your major race has no honest and sincere capacity to trade mined materials, then why in the world would a minor race want a trade treaty? It's fundametally flawed as trade would be going both ways if any goods and services actually exist. And at first, your empire is as weak as a kitten as you lack even industrial capacity or even have trouble feeding your people, let alone having crystals for sale.

It would be far better to have a hundred goods and services and mined materials. Think of what capacity would required to ship materials across just 20 light years for billions of minor race people just in one direction. It would have to be insanely profitable to even consider doing such a risky task.

And spices in history were insanely profitable as they could be bought for tiny sums and then had huge prices at their destination, only to be repriced at even higher prices so merchants made a profit. Look at saffron.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gQaOSggFKQI
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Re: Trade

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In economic terms, fuel would almost have to cost nothing to even make this work, and that is why ocean going vessels powered by wind worked in history. Clipper ships didn't have fuel costs.
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Re: Trade

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Most likely with modding, every planetary system would have much more infrastructure to even support a few vessels. They begin with a dismal amount. Some minor races with fleets have decent economies and so when they join, it's an economic miracle. Others are struggling with starvation.

And think, if they are doing fine domestically, why would they want interference by a major race bent on building an empire? The isolationists are the smart ones.

Any minor race who joins say the Terran Coalition loses their identity just as any who were part of the Roman empire or the USSR lost their identity and core values.
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Re: Trade

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How do you know what kind of trade resource to trade with a minor race?

Well in the early game, it's a function of what you can supply. But that's hardly the case in turn #380. Look at the minor race anthropology guide.
http://bote2.square7.ch/en/wiki/Test1

It was never completed with proper hyperlinking in the German BotE wiki, but the general details are there.

Like the Zhordanians or the Zhordanier.
The Zhordanians were once an up-and-coming, intelligent race, which, thanks to a high level of research in the field of weapon and mechanoid technology, seized dominance on Zhordan. They developed increasingly lethal weapons and, in senseless experiments, destroyed almost all living things on Zhordan. An unsuccessful experiment with a weapon that was supposed to destroy the vegetation in small areas, but to spare living beings, caused a chain reaction that destroyed the entire vegetation of the planet. Only a few survived this disaster in deep, underground bunkers. Little by little, the Zhordanians tried to get back to the contaminated surface and invented a kind of mechanical suit, in which they could withstand the heat now with the appropriate armor. How the Zhordans look without their suit can only be estimated from old records. What is certain is that they regress from the upright being and lose more and more of their physical properties.

Home system: Zhordan

Technological progress: progressive

Special ability: none

Bribery: difficult to bribe

Spaceman nation: yes own ships

Special building: research bunker : +40% biogenetics, +40% weapon technology
They are a space-faring minor race, so whatever materials are critical to building their ships plus standard buildings and whatever specific buildings a minor race has as that may have special natural resource requirements as well.

Then due to the random map, although I believe every minor race has specified solar systems. So go to their planet list and see the following.
1. Are all the planets terraformed because they often are not?
2. If not, even if you can't supply what they desire, you can improve relations by terraforming their planets so they can expand or migrate.
3. Click each terraforned system. What natural resources do they have?
4. If they lack a deuterium source, there's your answer.
5. Some buildings have special needs, say for energy generation.
6. The trade resource screen defaults to titanium and that may not be what they need. They may have a glut of it.
Minor Race Database http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... r_(Minors)
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Re: Trade

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http://bote2.square7.ch/en/wiki/Ship
You could look here at the Excel format ship list and maybe glean what their vessels require.

There isn't as yet a comprehensive research database in BotE just a general one for your major race and any minor race members.

There isn't a specific minor race page...yet...that has everything known about each of the 150 minor races.

What would be extremely helpful would be upgrades by technology that would alter the research database. There would unlocking of the database as you rose in technological prowess.

Some new interested person could screen cap all the available ships and add them to the existing minor race wiki.
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Re: Trade

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Try this.

Click on the diplomacy screen once you have Trade established. Now the flaw is natural resources are spread throughout the galaxy, and unless fuel is essentially free, then it makes far more sense for the minor race (or major race for that matter), to develop their own natural resources rather than ship them in. I would say that is a "no brainer" historically but globalism made everyone collectively stupid or greedy thinking low labor rates results in lower prices when it just means by buying outside your system, it ruins your own domestic trade and workers' livelihoods.

Nonetheless, from the diplomacy screen when offering a gift to "sweeten a deal" coupled with a higher vaued diplomatic treaty (and thus persuading that minor race to eventual membership), you can offer natural resources. The diplomatic system tells you the availability of various natural resources and thus implies a relative lack of those natural resources may exist.

Why? Because it honestly is contigent upon the relative wealth of a minor race, their industriousness, their technological level, and the state of mining on their planets.

See the issue? Good intelligence reports would tell you these factors and to what degree, but industrial espionage is not a facet of the security buildings.

You have hostile espionage and sabotage only and only directed at the major race empires.

You guess what they need by ascertaining incidental clues, in a manner reminscent of intelligence officers in the military and clandestine spy agencies. Why do you think so many security and intelligence officers are called analysts and have accounting degrees? They look at immense amounts of raw data and look for patterns and disruptions of patterns to then make analysis of why these patterns and disruptions exist.

You don't have a mechanism to determine what minor races need. It's bizarre. When really, that should be a routine diplomatic exchange.
"You know we have excellent mining facilities and recently began extracting iridium..."

"Really, our engineers have been unable to build iridium extraction facilities."

"We would be thrilled to begin trade in iridium as you need it."

"Excellent, that accelerates our capacity for buildings and vessels."
Thus opens the soor to a meaningful diplomatic relationship versus guesswork.

Mining is essential to your domestic economy and really should not be the foundation for trade. Finished goods and services would be a far preferable exchange as that would likely be unique to their environment and culture and abilities if their species.

It also should be reciprocated by purchasing our own finished goods and services. That way we are not competing but synergistically enhancing both species.
Minor Race Database http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... r_(Minors)
Minor Race Ships http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... nen_Völker
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