Diplomacy

[UesugiKenshin]

Unbelievably I was able to coax the Tarokyn into membership which they sure didn't seem all that receptive to trade at the beginning. There is a wide variation in receptivity. Anyway, they had a major fleet and I assumed it got disbanded when they joined the Romulan empire. NOPE! This doubled the Fleet and then I can also make some of their ships. It's amazing.

And The Romulans have huge reserves of ore and crystal and I've been selling it and greatly accelerating infrastructure building. So despite the Klingon game earlier with twice as many systems under their control, now I have half and as much research and twice the ships. Even range battleships!

Such a crazy game. I got a change to get special research on range, and moved 100% to that to see what happens. When it finishes, it then returned to a balanced distribution on standard research. I didn't have to divide it up. Then got a special research on ore sales so I pay no 15% commision meaning I can sell ore totally at a pure profit. Unbelievable...just so much fun.

The crazy Klingons declared war and they just met me. I can crush them with sabotage and they can't do squat. I might even steal some of their borderland systems just to rub their nose in it.

The people who wrote rude comments about BotE on Google Play...probably didn't play it all the way through for 300 turns. Sure the combat is underwhelming. So what? There is no combat animations in chess either.

I didn't think I would enjoy it either. I downloaded it and was bored at first with the building. So removed it, then tried it again.

Stick with it. It makes you think.

[UesugiKenshin]

Terraforming the Zuringians will end up with them non-cooperative, so better than angry. So you can terraform even if there is no trade agreement. I mean if they have spaceflight capability, they may attack you. It was fun to test.

At non-cooperative sometimes minor races end up improving to neutral and there is a chance for trade. So terraforming might break the diplomatic impasse.

You don't have to start wars. The Romulans are at turn 310+ or so. As I am testing not playing, it was pointless to fight until I could positively modify their troops and ships' offensive and defensive values. Fighting was pointless before. Now, they could win some. Now the fleet is twice the size it was prior. I have lost no ships and I reloaded the troop test.

It's weak to declare war unless you can back it up. Never worry about the mouthy drunk at a bar. Worry about the grinning quiet guy rolling up his sleeves.

[UesugiKenshin]

http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... #Gesinnung
What I have been calling "demeanor", in BotE is called attitude (when auto-translated) and is located within the source code. I was hoping there was a data file for it as a function of a major race value or in another data file for the minor races.

Such a value has various names under other games, and thus acts like "popularity or charisma" and so itself can be a significant attribute within the game mechanic. A race might have a power where they induce popularity and so prevent conflict.

[UesugiKenshin]

This attitude value is significant as maybe there's a potential of altering the codethrough dialogue to run missions at some point. There are very limited ways to alter the attitude. This aspect in Star Trek is what was utilized for storytelling and that aspect is almost entirely absent in BotE. Yet it's why people play a science fiction game. Otherwise it's the mechanics of conquest which gets dull pretty fast.

All games have a mechanism for upsetting diplomacy. In BotE it's a change of government. But there also is a mechanism for stability with minor races called "acceptance" and so once they bare members of your empire higher than 80%, they can't be bribed.

You have a communications grid to prevent subversion by other major races too.

There is a mechanism where one major race can free another major race's subjugated minor race through invasions too. Like the Liberation of Occupied France in WW2.

[UesugiKenshin]

http://birth-of-the-empires.de/wiki/ind ... enschaften
Racial characteristics of minor and major races is taken into consideration in first contact. It's well explained here and all of one kind like sneaky are grouped together, or all the warlike ones, and so forth. The Dominion stands alone as it has nothing special as a breed trait.

So technically it would be boring but as a philosophical thought experiment, then if all the major races were in a certain category, then diplomatically they would like each other more. So in game design, if there were a continuum where ethos shifted through a mechanism, then alliances would be more likely. Or a modifier in the code that similarly affected the diplomatic attitude formula.

[UesugiKenshin]

I'm playing as the Omega Alliance and in 3rd place (so last against the Terrans and the Khaorons). The latter must be chomping on Terran Coalition butts as they have offered me princely sums just for a friendship treaty prior. But now they want a defense pact and foolishly offered the Vi 79 lbs of deritium! That unstable natural resource is priceless. The Vi would lie and accept it to create new vessels, and temporarily support both sides, until a winner emerges...exhausted and depleted, and then attack the survivor.

The treaty is only for 50 turns too. How naive can you get? The Terrans must be fighting pitched battles.

I presume the Khaoron will defeat the Terrans as the latter are spread thin and relying upon initial standing military forces of their membership (minor races) who will be cannon fodder while the Terrans must sharply reduce infrastructure development and heavily build up their own Terran fleets. Basically the Terrans are using the ships of minor races as a defensive shield and is a pretty cruel dishonorable tactic.

[UesugiKenshin]

The Omega Alliance picked up the Xibren finally along with their extremely powerful fleet. Meanwhile the Khaorans finally showed up and are a bit of a mystery as intel reports they only have a single homesystem, though controlling nine other sectors, probably through starbases. Reports indicate their military far exceeds my own, but they are badly losing against the Terran coalition.

It make no sense as they have diplomatically painted themselves in an intractable corner.They have no support from minor races.

Meanwhile I lost an alliance with a powerless minor race devoid of vessels. What a screwy time to make it on their own. That is suicidal.

I like the range of how diplomacy shows up where minor races severely dislike then Omega and yet due to Terran membership, who are our so-called naive friends, so they have to trade with us regardless.

Soon the Terrans will crush the waning Khaoran empire. Then I guess the Terrans will either stab the Omega in the back or go for a diplomatic victory. If they dismiss the Omega threat, I can win a research victory, then build up a massive fleet and fight defensively.

Most often AI in 4X games make poor invaders.

When there are multiple ways to win, the AI should not be intransigent and focused on pointless war. That just wastes battlehardened veteran soldiers.

I think the attitude of the minor races and the major race attributes needs to be tweaked as weaker groups would at least try for alliances for self-protection and not be so focused on self-determination. Not when you finally absorb them and find they were struggling with infrastructure. Probably all the homesystems of the minor races lacking even colony ships...needs to be reconsidered as then they can't terraform and populate their homesystems. Not seems wrong as you want strong minor races...otherwise the ones lacking fleets are pushovers as you can blockade them and trash any trade possibilities and eventual starvation.

That indicates the minor races need modding so they have better economies.

It's plausible the Khaoran overbuilt their fleet and so limted their growth too.

This is why it's better to have a modder lay the foundation of the empires as a save game. Then the players step in and adjust as they see fit regarding if they are playing them as a sandbox or a particular kind of victory. That way the situation with a weakened Khaoran empire would not be happening so soon.

[UesugiKenshin]

Playing a diplomatic game as the Terrans is ridiculously easy. Even the Khaoran and Rotharians can persuade some minor races. The Omega Alliance seems to irritate the minor races, and without any bribing whatsoever, I got 10-12 to join. And I was extremely peaceful, only defending, and careful about entering systems. But the Omega are hated and they get bad moral checks with every treaty. They are not an easy major race to play, but only a fool would try a non-subterfuge race due to unbalanced sabotage.

Or just play a sandbox game of one major race and 30-50% minor races. I had a very unique 90% diplomatic game as the Khaoran and as the Rotharians. Both were enjoyable. A 60-70% minor races setting would be challenging but worth it. You would struggle to gain enough systems to build fleets.

[UesugiKenshin]

I'm playing a highly complex 6 empire game on a 40x40 @100 stars systems game with no random events, total conquest only 1% stellar anomalies, no anomalous entities, at the fastest rate of expansion. Then the caveat that major races can do little colonization as 50% of the map are minor races and each major race begins with a quandry of eight minor races.

In effect, the major races begin boxed in and have to first deal with their neighbors. The galaxy is not empty to easily expand.

It's ideal for the Terrans as they just manipulate their negotiations and so rapidly gain members.

As any empire (though currently playing as the Omega Alliance), I can manipulate natural resource mining as I figured out how to "game" the trade system. So I can rapidly gain a large treasury and have gained three monopolies in the last game, no small accomplishment as that requires 650,000. I'm not bragging. I could have had all 5 monopolies.

So I 'm trying bribery, sweetening deals, and outright gifts. It worked as 75% of hostile minor races who ordinarily are reticent to negotiations... have come around. But unluckily for me, the Terrans are right next door and so I encountered them in turn #140 and while we have a friendship treaty and non-aggression, they are poaching the very edges of my bordering minor races that I worked so hard to instill trust in.

Argh!

This was mostly a test of complex circumstances to see if the Omega can ultimately last into turn#500+ without overwhelming sabotage.

See the monopoly and bribery topic.

Bribery has mixed results that factor in the corruptability of minor races.high corruptability equals easier bribery.

Gifts for no reason ie "no strings attached" are opening moves to placate angry minor races who "have heard about the Omega's reputation".

In my opinion, the best way to deal with this built in bigotry is to mod BotE and add at least one new major race. That empire theoretically is a literal Tabula Rasa. So that is likely what their name will be.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa

The philosophical, anthropological, even psychobiologists' (the original name for neuroscience regarding anatomical function derived from biological structure of neurons and development) view among some scientists is that nurture is greater than nature. How we are raised ie what circumstances and parenting has a far greater effect than our ethnicity. See adoption as a fairly consistent example of well adjusted people who are raised outside of societal expectations and so often excel. Or poorly nurtured adopted folks can be taught to be monsters too, which explains how criminals invariably have high sociopathic tendencies because of horribly pervasive abuse in early childhood development. The brain in development is highly plastic. Your brain is a clean slate ready to be written on albeit with some instincts thrown in.

The new major race, TabulaRasa, would be unknown seemingly benevolent intelligent diplomats but with hidden agendas. They don't arouse suspicion as they act peacefully, not overtly malicious. So the minor races enter negotiations neutrallyand consistently. They of course could be played any possible way as they are unemcumbered by the moral baggage of the moral data file and not penalized by their major race data.

Their faces are masks and since so inscrutable, then they pose a danger to the entire galaxy. Lucifer was the prince of the heavenly host and beautiful and powerful, thus the most dangerous nemesis as at his core, he's the father of lies.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eEVV7s73B_8
The TabulaRasa would be thematically based upon Arthur Clark's Childhood's End in which a race of extraterrestrials, called the Overlords, appear as demons, so never reveal their appearance at first, and hide their true intentions with grand promises and provide an easier life, but utterly destroy world by subverting the younger generation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End

[UesugiKenshin]

The Terrans are hardcoded to attack (at least in earlier non-Android versions) based on difficulty and being defenseless and starting about turn #170.

Prior the Omega had gotten two large fleets from the Xibren and Adamar through membership. This then put the Terrans in a bind as they were already at war with the Khaoran. They pleaded for a nonaggression pact. Then paid a pricely sum to induce the Omega to agree as otherwise they would face two fronts of enemies.

When you meet a AI major race, and click on the handshake icon on the map symbols, it shows their territory and improves over time. So you have to be careful navigating as you both agreed not to send ships into their territory. They can be placated once,but do it again and it's war even if they were previously friendly.

You delay entering that contested sphere of influence until you have a better treaty than non-aggression. Trust builds and gifts are exchanged and then start exploring.

[UesugiKenshin]

Because there is no valid hailing system (other than combat) so you can contact a minor and major race outside a system, then conflict foolishly happens.

What you can try is send a defenseless colony ship and not click on that unknown yellow question mark fleet that you know exists and so get crushed, but send the colony ship past through that system while navigating. It seems like some extraterrestrials think your hapless colonists wandered through their territory and so is not a truly hostile act.

Then immediately leave after opening diplomatic negotiations and offer them a gift. They may be angry, so follow this with a friendship agreement. This lowers anger to not cooperative. In successive turns try more gifts and agreements like a trade agreement linked with a sum to placate the dangerous warlike minor races with substantial fleets.

The easy level should not be this hard. That guarantees many won't like the game as the minor races are vastly stronger than the player.

BotE absolutely needs a hailing system to initiate first contact. This is common sense.

[UesugiKenshin]

The Terrans get the godlike diplomacy and so when the AI plays them, they can absorb all the warlike minor races and get a vast number of initial fleets while they can't must more than five themselves.

See the problem?

And if you play as the Terrans, and likely many do, then you end up crushed by sabotage by turn #300 as you lack sufficient sabotage power (which the Catare, Rotharians, and Omega have).

It seems like a happy medium exists with the Rotharians as they seem to manage with more minor race membership and have excellent sabotage capabilities, but lack the strength of Catare fleets. Single Catare ships are not as effective.

Otherwise, you will be frustrated outside of a modded version sharply reducing the annoying unrealistic levels of sabotage (20+ attacks per turn!).

What you can do is give the AI some other things to focus upon, like disabling intel actions, but leaving all other goals on. Then racing for the research victory. Acquire it. Then play normally. The AI likely can't win as you kept playing so then you can finally defeat them.

Turning on a diplomatic victory, but with six empires all competing, then negates the Terrans from likely getting enough minor race membership. But the caveat is severe levels of sabotage.

There are minor tweaks which could easily disable sabotage by very high tech levels and so not show up until turn 600+.

[UesugiKenshin]

Your best option is a 40x40 huge map with 30% minor races,fast expansion, 1% stellar anomalies, 0% anomalous entities, random events disabled, with 3 total races. Only one has sabotage superability and you choose that one for your empire.

So this allows you a shot at victory against Terrans and Khaoran.

Being huge, you can last a long time without meeting them. You could lower the expansion rate to normal and not see them before turn #300. But colonization and exploring/surveying systems and diplomacy and trade then are boring.

Early conflict pre turn#400 makes zero sense for beginners. Frankly it's dumb before turn #500-600. Why? You want to be powerful and fight powerful opponents or collaborate with them. It's pointless conflict before the empires are truly ready.

I would rather fight fleets in turn 800+.

BotE can be so much more as it has huge untapped potential.

[UesugiKenshin]

Diplomacy exists because of the belief that synergy allows both parties to benefit vastly more together than alone and trying to exist on their sole efforts.

So really, that is how diplomacy and way more exchanges would honestly exist as the major race seeks to improve relations by helping with missions that convinces the minor race to be in an on-going dialogue with a major race empire.

They need help, and the major race faciltates that help: economically, culturally, altruistically, militarily for either protection or mutualism, etc. They offer their own technology and with modding, that might affect, not just their home system, but every system. Because if they have tech that works on P or K class planets, then why not use it on every terraformed P and K class across the stars? Why not have 12 or more buildings per minor race, instead of 2-3?

A vast number of unique troops could happen with some ideal for invasions on certain worlds and environments. Ocean troops, arctic ones, desert infantry, hovercraft, amphibious, mechanized infantry, etc. Some minor races might be ideal at psionic attacks, or others might negate others. Just as Troi was empathic, some minor race might confer diplomatic help too. Some might resist such emotional probing as well.

[UesugiKenshin]

The game could be very rich and pooling together to deal with the anomalous entities that can show up versus straight up battle between major races.

Think outside the box. A major race might think of their actions as benevolent, which are seen as hostile as forcing two weaker empires to join forces. Thus that 3rd major race intentionally threatens to foster diplomacy as that created allies where none existed before, or even the other two weaker empires saw each as interlopers.