Trade

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UesugiKenshin
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Re: Trade

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Americans don't want to buy raw materials from Germany when we have abundant natural resources. But German engineering is renown. Of course we want magnificently engineered sports cars with extraordinary performance and safety features.

That is how to make BotE better. You would want to trade finished goods and services.Consumers are not identical, but have needs along a continuum and will pay premium prices for remarkable quality. Quality lasts and is less expensive in the long run and holds its value (it doesn't depreciate as much).

So an excellent trade would undoubtably result in increased morale bonuses as the wealthy who control various aspects of banking, businesses, entertainment, investments, etc would then purchase these items and help the domestic economy by luxury sales.

So not only would morale increase, but the domestic economy due to ancillary trade supporting luxury sales. The salesman buy better homes causing an increase in construction. Businesses support the luxury sales by parts and factory authorized mechanics. More domestic luxury items are purchased. And so on.

Mining is almost irrelevant for intragalactic trade.
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Re: Trade

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So trade with a minor or major race honestly generates a meaningless amount of revenue.

Then is largely a function of how well the domestic economy was set up by the designer or modder regarding that other major or minor race.

Then is situational based upon the rate of expansion, the level of industrialization, the amount of funds available to those other races, and availability of natural resource diversity, and whether they have gotten around to producing those mines and to what degree regarding level (efficiency).

And since the entire trading system is only built upon titanium, deuterium, durantium, crystals, and iridium, even IF you wanted and the minor race wanted trade(or doubtfully the major races as they have so many colonies), by say turn #415, trade breaks down into an increasingly implausible situation.

Trade is too limited as so few natural resources exist (only five types and abundently found in the galaxy)and the minor race likely can fund and extract their own mining sources by then. And the major races as well, though they may be scrambling to allocate by resource routing.

It goes precisely back to my point that if you can generate your own domestic mining, what would be the impetus for trade with others???

Trade then merely becomes a symbolic act just to initiate diplomacy as there aren't practical reasons to have ore and crystals hauled in tens of light years away. It's nonsensical.

Check it yourselves by looking at the diplomacy screen and once trade is established, try say a friendship treaty (but don't send it) and see what mined materials they have. In many cases, they have access to all of them, so they don't need yours.

At that point, diplomacy becomes about pleasantries and various levels of protectionism against other major races (ie an extortion racket no dfferent than the Mafia or any form of organized crime) and humorously in a sandbox game as you are the only major race, so protect them from what???

It's true that the minor races lack funding to create say iridium mines though iridium is present, so the major race acts as a "patron" and pays the bills so they can be created, and that is one rationale for membership.

But a patient minor race could just in time do it themselves contigent upon space faring capability. Some arevery limited as they have no capacity to terraform and spread to the planets in their system. And some are very constrained by this.

It would be interesting if colony ships are sent from say the Wollonians that the colonists would be Wollonians that are in that colony ship and so they spread out as well as the major race. Then you would have demographics as that would affect the galaxy and may actually cause conflict.

Once a minor race has a high enough acceptance, there is really little chance they will rebel, and that is a function.of infrastructure building, whatever communications grids are built, and the major race type they have joined in membership, with the Terran Colaition least likely to rebel.
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Re: Trade

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Trade should be in finished goods and services...not extracted natural resources. Then there would be robust diverse trade that couldn't be made anywhere but certain planetary systems as those finished goods and services would be unique.

Otherwise you have supply, even a colossal amount of supply, but no honest demand. This is elementary level Macroeconomics theory.
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Re: Trade

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I've extensively tested the trading system. I cannot see any benefit to trading with major or minor alien races as the income is puny.

I don't bother setting resource routes except at the start. It seems futile as there are so few per system.

Instead I buy resources and sell my own mined resources back which consistently nets a large profit. I rush most infrastructure but not ships and troops (unless I desperately need them).

In a nutshell, this is how you make millions a turn by turn #650 or so. That's the secret way to leap ahead.

See my current advanced save game as I have 52 systems to their 22 and my systems are fully terraformed and developed in turn #366 (a little over halfway).

If you were to configure all the resource routing, each turn would take an immense amount of time juggling them for optimal sources. Realize that it looks like a plate of spaghetti and you can't easily determine which is the source and target.

Playing this way if far faster and more fun versus hundreds of hours of micromanaging trade/resource routing.
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Re: Trade

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What a smart human player can do is create some resource routes at the start. Then create some transports after turn 120+. Then send the transports loaded with ore or crystals to new colonies.

It would make sense as it takes a little bit for there to be enough workers to get the mines operational and at peak efficiency.

And such transports likely have a single unit of soldiers based on the tech level and raw materials available. So that unit is under orders to be local defense and drawn down during war time. Some regions would be staging regions. Now the new colony is "garrisoned". They are light token defense in case of invasion, so they need a bunker that is powered up. Then you have a listening post doing long range scans. Eventually more.

So you created transports as freighters.
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Re: Trade

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Now, not many realize that ore and crystals peaks out and rapidly refills as long established older colonies have higher level mining. So since the ore/crystals maxed at 125,000 or 150,000, then you could haul ore on purpose so it never maxes out, but endlessly is maximally produced.

That is strong micromanaging as those freighters are on a route hauling ore routinely. So maybe you do that as you have inadequate resource route slots and it's expensive to buy ore/crystals and have them delivered next turn. That is a one turn delay every time. The freighters at the highest level can travel 4 sectors per turn.

In turn #700 the Omega were often having 50 colony ships terraforming and colonizing per turn.
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Re: Trade

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Why would you not want to do it?

Committing large numbers of transports means less that are gaining combat experience at military academies as a protection as higher experience improves combat odds.

If 25 "freighters" are hauling ore and a single unit now and then, if you are attacked and need to do transporting of troops, that is 25 transports that are tied up on ore/crystal runs. Hopefully though you sent those troops to battle fronts.

In the Omega sandbox #700 turn save game, on purpose large numbers of troops are stationed at "internment camps" to gain experience and everywhere possible. But first thing, you want experienced transport ships to head out and organize garrisons to potentially attack minor race homesectors.
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Re: Trade

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This is vital.
You are going to end up with transports with very high experience. The faster ones will have less experience as they require higher tech to construct so they are newer.

Now sometimes you need to make a transport turn into an outpost or a starbase, but it's a shame to spend a high experience transport on that as you lose their experience.

And you want to gain experience in the fastest newer transports.

So even though you may end up with 50 transports of various speed and experience, you might just make some more to turn into outposts and starbases. They will be faster and raw recruits.
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Re: Trade

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Outposts and starbases play a role, but it's a lesser one later in the game at high turns. Your populated sectors will have orbital batteries, minefields, and shields.

Your outposts/starbases can early on do this dirt cheap (transport conversion), but later would just cause big increases in upkeep. They exist to extend your range early on. The AI uses them to wage war. They send several waves of transports to create contested territory in your empire.

Human players likely use them as early warning detectors on the periphery of borders.
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Re: Trade

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A devious human player would overwhelm the AI by sending massive waves of transports and create starbases all over the enemy's sphere of influence. Then they essentially have fortified zones in enemy territory from which they can launch attacks.

Then immediately send fleets to the zones and begin bombardment runs.

Then have troop transports right behind to do ground invasions.

Enemy ships would take a lot of damage trying to rid themselves of all these sudden starbases.

Then your fleet attacks weakend exhausted embittered enemies. They would be furious and could not withstand dealing with both.
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Re: Trade

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In real life, an empire wouldn't be shipping ore/crystals to places tens of light years away as it wouldn't be profitable...unless it's really a benevolent act to curry favor so that eventually the minor extraterrestrials are pleased and see that a long term relationship helps them. They understand they have no plausible way to compete or resist...over an extended period. Being defeated is inevitable. It's safer to join and it's prudent too.
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Re: Trade

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Uesugi "What is the function of trade?"

New player "To make money,Silly!"

Uesgi " Wrong. The function of trade with major empires is to establish diplomatic relations. You want them to see your empire as useful to their empire. You want to improve relations even if you lose money."

New player "You're a moron."

Uesugi "Would you rather lose a pittance and gain valuable allies, who then attack others, and then make money in other ways?"

New player "Maybe..."

Ueusgi "Create trade and terraform the planets of the homesectors of minor aliens. You will always lose money,but gain strong infrastructure which benefits other aspects of the empire."

New player "I want to squash them like insects."

Uesugi "You certainly can...What if they have stronger starships?"

New player gulps.

Uesugi "They can't attack you unless they are mediors. If you get their tech, you can apply it to your ships and apply your tech to their ships. Some of these may play a useful role in conquest and in defenses."
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Re: Trade

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Here is what is weird about trade. You or major or minor aliens suggest trade, but often don't follow through. It isn't profitable and the ai won't create trade routes with you.

But what happens is relations improve into friendship. Ah, that is what we wanted and it didn't cost anything. I'm modding the Balancer mod and more trade/resource routes will exist. Thus you can choose to allocate some to trade to minor aliens, but most will be resource routes.

It's giving the players more options. It also means embargos are more likely as a ship could sit on a site that is a hub for resource trading and so block shipments.
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Re: Trade

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Why is infrastructure built in BotE? The only ultimate answer is to generate income, but not through trade, but through the manipulation of mining resource prices and subsequent sales. You see that is peculiar as trade is such a major factor of economies.

Ordinarily in a 4x strategy game, income is comprised of revenue from taxation, agriculture (more on that in a second), mining, and trade. Trade is the largest income producer and so taxation is often second as it's indirectly a factor of a booming economy from trade as well.

Even agriculture can be exports, and since urban centers can't produce agricultural products due to Malthusian forces due to popualation density, then land prices rise ie get inflated because there is so much commerce from trade that people can't afford to own land as home buyers, but are satisfied with apartments and rents are a factor of economic growth. So you can't have home ownership and farms as speculators drive up land prices in heavily urbanized cities.

Well...trade doesn't really exist in BotE except as mining resources for export and inport. They are not the same as trade is largely about finished goods. You trade in BotE to establish better diplomatuc relations and likely with minor aliens, yet no trade may actually exist. Why? Because insufficient trade/resource routes exist. Regular players need resource routes.

But advanced players don't need resource routes. The have income from manipulating mining resource prices. They build a surplus in their treasuries. Then RUSH production, thus mines are the primary infrastructure rushed, once agriculture is stable. Why?

Every time you rush production, it inflates the mining resource prices. Then you sell your cache of mining resources to setpoint values so you can keep building as you need them as raw materials. This deflates the mining resource price. And when the price is low, and you just have to get a source of raw materials, you probably buy it and have it show up next turn at that sector. Then new infrastructure can keep being built. Maybe in an uncommon way, you create a resource route. And doing this over and over makes your GDP be in first place and 2-3 times everyone else. Which means you can afford more research, ships, and troops. Which means first your empire is first in science and maybe at 3 and at least double the average. Then ultimately, beyond the influx of artificial minor alien fleets that get absorbed through membership, then a savvy player builds more ships and troops. Which again inflates the commodities market.

Rushing factories also inflates the value of resource prices, but since you are rushing and not building (at first), it's strangely a lower priority. That is peculiar as managers of industry are typically trying to have efficient production for commerce, but truly there is no commerce in BotE!

What exists is like a commodities market. This is a rural area and strangely enough a farmer who is astute, can make as much money in the commodities market as they can actually growing crops and raising livestock. They do what I am doing by watching market forces, except that the Omega are controlling the resource market by buying and selling such volume.

It's quite bizarre. I have never seen an economic system like BotE before...but that is because it's a galactic commodities market, not a nation based simulation.
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Re: Trade

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And it's a bizzare commodities market as I'm dumping mining resources to gain income, but buying depressed mining resources to supply whatever deficits I have. It's way faster on turn times to do this as it adds so many hours trying to break and create new resource routes once you have even 25 colonies...let alone 200. It takes a week to go from turn #1 through turn# 300, but it takes another week to do turn# 301 through turn# 400. See it becomes a major aspect of micromanaging the game. Whereas if you do it my way, you keep clipping along in a fraction of the time and make far more commodities market manipulation profits too.

Being prudent is the chief way to making low profits and it's tedious as well. All the resource routes make it impossible to rapidly assess troubleshooting what is most efficient. A portion of my life was being a troubleshoother and training troubleshooters. I taught people how to rapidly access industrial processes and production issues to save money and improve efficiency to save lost profitabilty.

If I did it wisely to minimize buying resources (as raw materials for new construction of infrastructure) on the open market, I would make less profit. That is odd. It should be the opposite. You should utilize what you mine to save buying what you already produce.
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